Interview with Jonas Eriksson, former FIFA referee

Business owner, entrepreneur, referee, speaker, expert commentator, author... The list can be made long of things Jonas Eriksson has done and achieved. Between 2012–2018, Jonas was ranked top 10 among Europe's best referees and year 2016 he was ranked third in the world - how big is that?! We did a longer interview with Jonas Eriksson to talk a little about old memories, his refereeing career, the refereeing role and his thoughts on things going forward in the refereeing world. We at Spintso are a little extra proud that Jonas has used our Retro Pro watch too, of course.

– Hello Jonas. My god, what a pleasure to talk to you! You are a busy person.

– Yes finally. Nice to be interviewed by you. I don't just have one or two employers right now, but somewhere around twenty, where I work in various fields. Very many different roles with everything from advisor, owner, board member and expert commentator. There are different focuses between the days, many thing to do at the same time. It's really fun and I'm learning things every day and being challenged every day. I get to do things I find fun and I have not one dream job but twenty dream jobs right now. I am still involved in football as well. I am the coach for the daughter's team, 13-year-olds, and there are three practices every week plus matches. Then I am also the referee responsible for Sigtuna IF, the same club that I am a coach in and where my daughter plays. I train and helping getting referees to the matches in 3-3, 5-5, 7-7, 9-9 and further up to the district to get more referees who will go on there.


– A lot to do, in other words. Where do you get your energy to cope with everything?

– I really get a lot of energy from all these things and different assignments. I am extremely meticulous and only do things I find fun, which gives me energy. Around me there are lovely people, good feedback back to me, challenging and more. Number two is that I do my six training sessions per week. I get my running sessions, strength sessions, padel, yoga and other things. I stay in good physical shape and will run a marathon in 5 weeks in New York. It also gives me a lot of energy. Physically and in terms of form, I'm probably at the same level as I was when I stopped refereeing at the elite level.


– Football has been and still is a big part of your life. But how did the whole football and refereeing thing start for you. Can you tell me from the beginning?

– I have always been interested in football and played football in IFK Luleå and fell in love with the sport football, which is the best sport in the world. You get the ability to do things together with other players and as a team, you win together, you lose together and you train towards a goal. That whole lever was incredibly important and cool to experience as a youngster. When I was 13 I started refereeing and it is not a team sport in the same way for someone who has not refereed. But once you've refereed for a while, soccer refereeing is a team sport to the highest degree. You build teams, you have colleagues you have to trust and not least to deal with people who are different. 22 players who don't always think the same and you really have to challenge yourself and make a lot of decisions. You learn to deal with pressure and stress and that was also an important part of me starting to referee and continuing with it for 31 years. I was passionate about it and thought it was incredibly fun to referee.


– Do you come from a football family?

– Dad was very interested in both football and ice hockey. My mother and my sister were not very interested, but today my sister has been a coach for both her children who have played soccer up to a high level. Father was active in the team where I played, also active in the board of the club and was also chairman of IFK Luleå for a time. His involvement in football has of course followed me and influenced me of course.


– You were 13 years old when you started refereeing football Jonas. Why did you start refereeing?

– Simple really. I was very angry on the pitch as a player. I shouted, scolded, played hard and was mad at all the referees who were rude and cocky. I hated referees who came 5 minutes before the match started, nonchalant and never answered questions. Then I thought that it can't be that damn hard not to be like they were. The judgments I had weren't as bad as it sounds now, but that's how I perceived it as a 13-year-old when I was angry and frustrated, simply a winner. I started refereeing because I thought: it can't be that hard. So I attended a refereeing course organized by my association and started refereeing. I noticed that if I don't do what my colleagues do, this will be fine. Sure, it wasn't as easy as I thought, but there was still something in it. That I was on the field thinking a lot about the questions What is it like to be a player? If I had played, how would I have wanted to be treated then? Then I changed sides with myself and thought about it, for example, when a player came up and scolded and was angry. If I were this player now, what would I want to hear from the referee. And then I said the words, which I rowed that this player wanted to hear. Most of the time it worked. I was still playing and could easily put myself inside a player's head. I was still an angry player on Saturday and refereed football on Sunday. In order to understand another person, you should have been in the same position yourself, which I absolutely was. If you talk to a person who has financial problems, you should also have had it yourself in order to understand. I have been an angry supporter in the stands as well, who is angry on the referee, the players and the manager. But understanding that connection and being able to put yourself in other situations is incredibly important to be successful in different areas. Simply having understanding.

–You were first association referee and then took the step to district referee. Can you tell me about it?

– It was completely obvious to me. There was no doubt that I would. I was 14 years old when I took the district referee course and would turn 15 later that year. I sat there, youngest of all, and thought it was obvious. When I started refereeing, I noticed that my age didn't matter, it was what I performed that mattered. Of course, it was a bit difficult to referee those who were then in, for example, the ninth grade and I was in the seventh grade. But as long as I was clear, ran and performed as a referee, they had full respect for me. I was also only 17 years old when I refereed Division 5 and yes, obviously it was special. Everyone was an adult and there I came, but I went for it and refereed the way I wanted to be refereed if I had played there.


– Division 5 when you were 17 years old. The way up from there then? Can you tell me more about it.

– As I said, I refereed division 5 when I was 17 years old and after that it was step 3 two years later to referee division 4 in 1994. The following year 1995, I went to step 4 and refereed division 3, and on at that time, division 3 and 2 were within the region. I refereed division 3 for six matches, then I got to try out in division 2. It went well there and I got to continue as a referee in division 2. Then between 1996 and 1998 I was in division 2. There I built experience, but I thought it took long time, to long. I wanted to get up and thought I deserved it, but had to fight even harder. In retrospect, I look back on it as something good, because I got to build a foundation of experience that was incredibly important. Sometimes as a referee you think you don't get the chance, but you get the chance when you are good enough and work for it. You must have built up experience and if you get up too early, it will be tough. In 1998 I had to get up and go step 5 and did well. I got trial matches in -98 but was not allowed to go up as an elite referee and thought it was very wrong and was very disappointed. But again, Bosse Karlsson fantastic leader and person, told me to build experience one more year and after that I had trial matches in division 1 and handled them well. Then I moved up as an elite referee in 2000 and that year they moved 15 referees down and moved 2 up. It was also the year they converted division 1 north and south into the Superettan, next highest league in Sweden. It was fantastic in every way to come up as an elite referee!


– Did we touch on some tough years and matches here Jonas? You mentioned being disappointed a couple of times for example.

– You always have an image of yourself in one way and the reality is another. It doesn't matter if you are a football referee or an IT technician, you think you are a little better than you are. Those who don't think so have a different problem. Many referees have a good self-esteem and a good self-confidence than many others, generally speaking. I thought those times at first that I was terribly disappointed, but clenched my fist in my pocket and gathered even more experience. Because in the end, it is experience that makes a good referee. That's why you never see a referee who is 25 years old refereeing the best Champions League matches example. It takes time to get there and it is no wonder that it is so. I found a balance there somewhere, I was patient and built more and more matches. When I then got the chance sharply, I was ready for it. It is good for everyone to take it with them into their career, regardless of the divisions in which they are officiating.


– If we look at referee Jonas Eriksson as a 17-year-old person compared with referee Jonas Eriksson as a FIFA referee, towards the end of your career. What is different then?

– Incredibly little. Actually. If you ask a division five player that I refereed when I was 17 or Andreas Johansson in Halmstad, with whom I had one of my last matches before I quitted, I hope they say the same things about me. I had the same style, I never tried to be authoritarian, I had a natural authority, explained my decisions, nice, put my foot down when needed, didn't compromise on what is right or wrong... that's kind of how I thought. It's clear as hell that I failed at times. I really always tried to have a good attitude with players and managers and it didn't matter if I refereed lower down or in the Champions League. I think I was very similar to myself, but it is clear that you got better at handling rules and better at understanding decisions and the like, but as a referee I was probably very similar to myself.


– You are still a part of the football family, but do you miss the refereeing profession and what was around the role as a referee?

– Of course I do! The referees who have quit and say they don't miss it, I think they are lying. The feeling of going into a match and making a lot of decisions, standing up, collaborating with your colleagues, having a dialogue with players, yes, all that... it's clear you have to miss it. It's strange otherwise. If you don't miss it, I wonder if you had fun when you did it? Then maybe you don't miss everything in it. Those who have retired from work may miss work, but maybe not Monday morning or some boring tasks. But you definitely miss the fun, meeting colleagues and other things around. Then as you say, I am still a small part of the football family. Oh my god, of course I am, haha. I train my daughter, I am responsible for referees in the local club, I get the opportunity to work with the Allsvenskan, which is a fantastic league, I get to watch all the matches if I wanted to, I work with major championships and I still get to be part of that great pulse at major matches and work with live football broadcasts. All of that still gives me a huge kick. I have good contact and hang out with all my good friends that I made in the role as a referee.

– If you follow Jonas Eriksson on Instagram, for example, one would think that you have a penchant for strange and odd situations that arise in football. Correct?

– Haha, yes, absolutely. Since I started posting some on Instagram, I've been completely bombarded with them. I get footage from all the different divisions, where for example someone wonders if it's not a penalty or not, from a VEO camera where you can't see anything at all. But it's nice that people are looking for information and support. We referees know that knowledge of the rules around the country, and world, is very low. Very low! I get an incredible amount of feedback and fun contacts that way. I got one the other day which I was very happy about. There was one person who was overjoyed that I answered a question, that I explained. The person said that he used to hate referees, sat in front of the TV and shouted at the referee, but now realized that it is so difficult to be there and the person himself said that he did not know any rules. It makes me so happy to hear it from that person that the understanding can be changed by a response. Because it really is that way: we who referee must get better at talking about it and explaining. We have to describe decisions we make and that there are two parts to it, because many judgments in football are not black and white decisions. Everyone looks at situations and decisions differently, because we are different people and we also see situations from different directions and angles. I generally think that the confederations, FIFA and referees, elite and amateur level, are too bad at explaining decisions. You can't run around the pitch and explain everything, I get that and I know that. But you can get better at taking short explanations. For example, I blew offside because I think the player was in the line of sight or disturbed the goalkeeper. It is enough. Then you can take the longer version before or after the match. For example, that the player is standing here and I believe it disturbs the goalkeeper in such a way that it affects the goalkeeper to act. The goalkeeper can act only when the ball has passed the offside player, and then I think it is offside. Explain and admit mistakes that are black and white or obvious, then maybe you should be humble and be able to say that yes, there was a mistake there. Dare to tell to get the ultimate respect and understanding.


– How do you think one should deal with angry players or leaders on the pitch?

– I think the best thing, the times a manager or player comes when the match is over, is to say calmly and nicely "please come to us in 20 minutes and I will explain. If they come into the referee's room then, they deserve a really good explanation. Then you shouldn't be angry and you shouldn't take it personally. I am convinced now, and when I refereed, that communication is so very important. I have stood up in interviews when I was right, I have stood up in interviews when I've been wrong and I've also stood up in interviews when I've been in the gray area, to explain. Somehow, when you don't do that, other people think that now they're lying and protecting themselves or that it's not true. It becomes a stigma when you don't even try to explain and it becomes dangerous when others think you are trying to hide the agenda. I know that the referees don't hide the agenda on purpose, but other outsiders can perceive it that way and then there is a mistake in communication. If the referee doesn't want to answer on the questions, let your employer answer the questions. Out, describe, explain, talk and be a little humble. We can't just answer questions when we make the right decision. I think finding a good balance there is very important.


– There are more and more reports that referees are treated worse, the work environment is tougher and the shortage of referees has never been as high as it is now. What do you think has changed over the years

– The biggest part that has changed is society in general. I can see that as a football referee and when I refereed football at the highest level for 20 years. It is a society where there is no patience, no one admits mistakes and people blame others. Fewer and fewer take responsibility. When did you hear a politician say that we made the wrong choice a few years ago, or someone else higher up who takes responsibility for something. When we have a society where it seems like admitting mistakes is a weakness, it won't come down properly to a sport either. Football players cannot admit mistakes. A referee taking a wrong corner does not in itself decide a match, but a football player missing his mark completely on that corner can decide a match. Then the players scold the referee because the corner was wrong, but the referee does not scold back because the player missed his mark. It is also a society where there is social media and the harsh tone is easier. You can type whatever you want and press enter, and that behavior is reflected more in real life as well. You are much more directly aggressive and sometimes mean in communication.


– Everyone is part of the football family. We can talk as much as we like about how a player or manager can and should treat us as a referee. But, let's talk within the referee community. What can a referee do, to get better treatment?

– Very exciting! I will lecture for the SHL (ice-hockey), for sports managers, referees and others. Where my whole thesis is based on that we referees also behave badly. Of course there are lots of players, leaders, spectators and more who behave badly towards us referees. But we have referees who turn their backs on a calm player who just wants a simple explanation, referees who run away, who have a hand in their pocket and threaten with the yellow card. Those referees create their own work environment. Then the next match there is a referee who has a good attitude, who wants to explain and is nice, but then has to work against the wind because of the previous referee. Imagine if the referees get 10% better at treatment and the leaders get 10% better at treatment, then all of a sudden we have a work environment that is 20% better than it was before. A hell of a difference! But everyone, including the referees, must help push in towards the middle, together, then the lever will be shorter. As a referee, you have to understand a reaction from a player if, for example, you receive a penalty against you in the 89th minute, you have to understand that reaction. Then that reaction has to be at a reasonable level of course, but we as referees can't just say damn idiot, I'm right it's punishment and be aggressive back and threaten with the cards. What I am claiming is that we are dealing with people, regardless of whether you are a referee, player or manager. Everyone just needs to get better at handling each other and you can't wait for the referee to be nice, or for the players to change. We all need to change!


– Another identified problem is that referees quit after one or two years. How can we get more referees to continue?

– That there will be more referee clubs that allow two referee systems in the lower divisions. I have an example from a match where a young and new referee refereed a division six match together with an older colleague. It was a header from own player to the goalkeeper where the younger referee blows a free kick, but the older colleague steps in and says calmly and nicely that this is going to be wrong, and supports and helps. Imagine if the young referee had been there all alone. It could have ended badly and that referee might quit because of it. Now it was right and then there was nothing more to it. Mentoring and allowing two referee systems more often. That we ensure that referee clubs and associations have time to follow up on these new referees and that support is provided during matches and after matches. Then I also believe in talking more with the teams. Creating relationships and good communication. If you talk to different series and divisions, everyone often says that "no, the referees are bad". The teams rarely says anything good. If we do this we get more referees, if we have more referees we can raise the minimum level of the referees. The fewer referees we have, the worse it will be. From the Allsvenskan down to division 7.


– If we go back to you again Jonas. Is there a match you've refereed that makes you extra proud of when you think back on it?

– Oh, yes... Refereeing a World Cup is fantastic for all referees. To be able to do it in Brazil, which is the World Cup of World Cups and to referee Brazil in the capital, when Brazil also have to win against Cameroon to advance in the play-offs is a pressure and stress that you have to have been there to understand. To be trusted to take responsibility for such a match, to be able to keep a team together, to be allowed to leave the arena without anyone even mentioning the referees in principle is absolutely incomparable. It's crazy. It is a pleasure to have been part of it. It is me, Daniel, Mattias and Sven who can have that feeling. No one else can relate to that feeling.


–Something that you are familiar with is VAR. Now we're not going to talk about VAR, but the new abbreviated SAOT. Semi-automated offside technology. Your thoughts on that?

– It is absolutely not the "fix" for VAR that some have started talking about. However, it fixes part of the VAR and that is the offside. Or rather, I think it could perhaps be a fix of the offside judgments instead of VAR. It really shouldn't take 3 minutes and you can still be offside with a nose tip. With this new one, it will take a maximum of 30 seconds and you can be offside with a nose tip, but that doesn't mean that we who are watching will understand it. It will speed up the process around offside and that is of course good, compared to how long it can take now. VAR will remain when someone interferes or intervenes on offside, I think of Chelsea against Tottenham a couple of weeks ago. There is still a human being sitting there deciphering it. What is a deliberate pass, what is a save and so on. What worries me a bit is that a lot of money has been put into this SAOT, but it only applies to the World Cup, Serie A, Ligue 1 and some other league. It doesn't help the other referees or the players who don't have VAR or SAOT. After all, that amount is 99.8% of all football played in the world. I'm afraid we're spending all the money on that referee development. Imagine if you were to hand out that money and instead say "now we develop the referees so everyone gets better". In general, I think we have very good assistant referees. If they miss an offside by a nose, well, so be it. But they should not miss the big obvious offsides.


– Is SAOT a first small step towards us not needing assistant referees? Or that the offside judgement, for an assistant referee, disappears in that 0.2% of football?

– Absolutely. That's how it is. But we will need referees who make all the other decisions that SAOT does not make. As I said before, interfere, gain advantage or intervene on offside and so on. A chip in the ball that sends out its location 500 times per second sounds absolutely insane. It feels unrealistic. Also, 12 new cameras to be installed in each arena to assess each player's exact position also feels a bit strange. Those who are skeptical of VAR will still be skeptical of VAR, because we will have a human behind the TV screen for VAR making those judgments. Then I can also get a little crazy and wonder why we haven't developed VAR more and, for example, go in and remove the cheat more. For example, VAR can step in and remove an incorrectly awarded penalty for filming, but only in the penalty area. Why not remove the cheating out on the field and filming there too? Ice hockey has focused on head tackles, why can't football focus on filming? Many people see that a player spins 8 times after filming, but the referee may have perceived the tackle itself as a free kick. But in fact it was a filming. Why can't VAR go into that one and remove the cheat? It drives me crazy sometimes.


– Interesting. Almost time to end this mega-long interview Jonas. But another new thing that is being tested is Body-Cams on referees in the UK. What do you think about that?

– I am for all ways that can improve the working environment for referees. Compare it to speed cameras when you drive a car. If you see a speed camera, you really aren't driving too fast. If Body-Cams can remove extreme things such as abuse, threats and aggressive things directed at the referees, I'm all for it. Also in the lower divisions. I can't say no to that. There are many things like this to think about, to sometimes bring things to the surface. Maybe someone should start an account and film parents, crowd, managers and players behaving less well and post it. It might make people improve. I'm not sure that's the right method, quite an aggressive one. But somewhere and at certain times, people need to see how others act in order for us to get a change.


– Thanks for all your thoughts Jonas. Thank you for your time! Good luck with everything you do and glad to hear that you are still part of the football family.

– Thanks!